With all the hoopla about officially measured dogs ,

Discussion in 'Field Trials' started by Steep Hollar, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. Steep Hollar

    Steep Hollar Member

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    I’d like to moment on this subject this is nothing more than a smoke screen to cover the real problem with the spo ,the. Buddy gudging at trials and so called professional handlers bringing loads of dogs to trials not to mention handlers that can’t keep there mouth shut and are constantly trying to tell the judges what to look at the fact is most peaple that start trialing get out about as quickly as they get in when they find there waisting precious time and money I can honestly say I’ve lost all respect for akc and there cronyism ps I want to clarify there are some hones judges out there but the bad ones far out way the honest ones
     
  2. Bowguy 1

    Bowguy 1 Well-Known Member

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    Listen there’s plenty of honest judges. Yea there are crooked ones too.
    Not understanding the rules is a bigger one.
    Just this weekend I was talking
    To a fellow. His impression is the judges interpret rules. It’s not so or it shouldn’t be so.
    His proof was , the same rulebook is used in hare trials as in conservative ones so you must interpret.
    I could almost see what he was saying. Here’s the thing I’ve said it before. It’s an AKC trial. The hound that confirms the best to that book should win.
    Here’s a for instance. Say we’re running and one hound runs over very slightly say it’s measured in feet.
    As it oversteps that pinch the hound begind keeps grabbing checks and cutting him.
    Who should win?
    Say the dog is overrunning 50 feet. To me that’s real far but if another keeps over running 100 feet but getting cut who is winning? There’s no interpretation guys. It’s who better conforms and what you have to judge or should be.
    If I judged at a hare dog club and placed a club members dog did I interpret the rules wrong, did I buddy judge or did I place a win on the closest “book hound”?
    Remember there’s lots more than simple scoring a check rules like how to work checks (industriously close), leaving checks, racing, hooking, improper use of mouth, etc so it was only an example and
    It must all be considered.
    Idk too many judges at least round here flat out cheat. If it happens just avoid those clubs/judges.
     
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  3. Wilbur

    Wilbur Well-Known Member

    I'm perplexed by the soap box back and forth about A K C ,there's been field trails for well over 100 years there's also been a 13 and 15 inch class , they can't even figure out after 100 years how to measure 13 inches! how do you think you'll ever get every akc judge to interpret the entire rule book the same?? Your not, either compete like it is, or try solving world hunger otherwise your beating a dead horse.........Wilbur
     
  4. Bowguy 1

    Bowguy 1 Well-Known Member

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    There is no interpretation. There’s merits and demerits. Nothing perplexing about it.
     
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  5. Wilbur

    Wilbur Well-Known Member

    Once again , you missed the whole point but I'm not perplexed by that......Wilbur
     
  6. davemcc

    davemcc Well-Known Member

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    Got to agree with Wilbur on this. Foolish to think are rules are not being interpret differently. After all the most important book ever written ( book of life). Is interpreted several different ways. Are judges interpret laws differently. In are work place look at all the mis interpretations. Way would we think rules written 100 years ago are not going to be interpret differently if man is involved? I say go to trials have fun watch some good hounds injoy the fellowship who knows you may end up with a fc.
     
  7. Bowguy 1

    Bowguy 1 Well-Known Member

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    Don’t mistake what I’m saying rules are being interpreted or guessed at. That’s not AKCs wish imo. That’s why the definitions are there.
     
  8. Steep Hollar

    Steep Hollar Member

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    What’s all this got to do with judges trading wins on other judges dogs got to do with anything if u try hard enough u can turn a blind eye to any thing and I’ve have finished a fc and been beagling for 42 years so please don’t patronize me
     
  9. Bowguy 1

    Bowguy 1 Well-Known Member

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    Steep Hollar no one was patronizing you or saying you were wrong. Buddy judging does happen. It’s happened to me and I’m very sure w others.
    In the full scheme of things at least around here it’s not as rampant.
    Years ago there was a club I’d go to where it obviously was an issue.
    That club is no longer around due to lack of money due to no entries.
    Imo and it’s my opinion based on what’s locally ,at least, happening it’s not the biggest prob. The inability to read/comprehend the book is.
    If any offense was taken by anything I said it certainly wasn’t intended.
     
  10. will messer

    will messer SUPER MODERATOR Staff Member

    RULES~ without any enforcement---are worthless. Instead of having all this confusion about oversized dogs---go back and measure the dogs with certified cards---if they don't match the cards-----ask the judges that certified them how they got their measurement----THEN SUSPEND THEM!
    Only when the rules are enforced will the problems become less. AND the authorities wont have to travel far---they can start close to home~~JMO !
     
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  11. Bowguy 1

    Bowguy 1 Well-Known Member

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    Wow that’s a great idea w some suggestions. If a man had one two dogs in his whole life measured 1/8” over it might be a honest mistake. If it’s chronic for sure I agree w you
     
  12. Steep Hollar

    Steep Hollar Member

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    Just found out a popular trialer recently placed seven yes I said 7 stinking dogs at one trial nobody absolutely nobody is that good of course it could have been divine intervention ‘just saying
     
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  13. Robert L. Dunn

    Robert L. Dunn Well-Known Member

    I have been field trialing as long as Steep Hollar. This will still be a topic for discussion and disagreement if the sport survives another forty years. The only way to fix the problem is if you like field trials then go and if you dont then stay away from them. Most successful field trialers that I know select which judges to run under and which ones not to run under. Same goes for the beagle club.
     
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  14. Greenhaw

    Greenhaw Well-Known Member

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    Get the people that trial on a regular basis out of judging. HOW? Train and pay Judges well enough so they will do it. If every dog owner though he or she was getting a fair deal at a trial. The entry numbers would double at least. Do not announce the judges till the day of the trial. Some trialers that judge wish they didn't have to. It makes them look bad. They judge to help the sport.
     
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  15. Bowguy 1

    Bowguy 1 Well-Known Member

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    Greenhaw this is a double edged sword. If the guy doesn’t trial themselves lots of guys say/think they couldn’t possibly know proper dog work. I’m not saying that’s true.
    Next who would pay? The AKC or the clubs? Would the entry have to automatically go up to cover costs or would clubs do all of the work involved in a trial without any meager gain? It is a fundraiser for most.
    Not announcing judges isn’t good either. Proper training would be good but until than guys are doing best running under certain judges. Unless the training makes carbon copy judges guys would still follow certain judges around.
    Here’s another thing, you say entries would double. Ok so say someone like myself became an official judge.
    I’ve posted before about many rules.
    It’s not unknown I personally believe in medium type speed dogs as the best. No offense to anyone I’m only making a point.
    Even at say a hare club a line control, med speed dog could win. I’ve posted before we need to judge the closest hound to rule book.
    This being said say I or any judge had followers. They’d not be afraid to go to that hare club and bring a bunch of dogs.
    Eventually the members could possibly be overwhelmed and find no where to trial themselves.
    Maybe they could compete if it was straight up hare though cause they run simpler loops.
    And what of the hare clubs that also have cottontails inside?
    What probs could that present for placing/running considerations?
    All things to think about and I’m not saying you’re wrong just more to think about.
    I will say the one thing I 100% agree on is the proper training.
     
  16. rienmark

    rienmark Well-Known Member

    Maybe we could get some of Santa's elves to judge the trials and everybody would get their wishes or stand at the wishing well throw a penny over your shoulder and go off to the trial
     
  17. Running La. biares

    Running La. biares Well-Known Member

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    Inappropriate and bias judging does happen. Seen it firsthand know for a fact judges raise dogs and sail two other people and judge that dog which is out of there stock. But I don’t worry about it I’m there just to have fun and hear some dogs. But back to the measuring thing a dog I entered into trails always measured fourteen and a quarter to fourteen and a half so I always just put him straight in big he went to the winners pack so we had to be measured before the run judges Rushed measuring him said he was 12 and seven eights And I had to go with What the judges said you only get one measure that akc rules I told them they didn’t even give them a chance to stand as soon as he hit the platform they dropped the bar on his back he had been on the platform two seconds I told him that they wasn’t doing it right and I wanted to remeasure they would not give me one it was blatant bias but I loaded them in the truck and went and watch the winners pack run and had fun and went home two weeks later entered same dog another trial judges were at this trial but was running dogs and not judging Told them to watch this Judge Measure this dog and what he comes out to (141/4) they just giggled and walked away I think if you asked for a remeasure they Should Measure dog three times and take the biggest out of the three I think that would solve a lot of confusion with people Not knowing how (or bias) to correctly measure dogs
     
  18. Steep Hollar

    Steep Hollar Member

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    Guys Greenhaw has got it right that’s what I have been advacating for I say attendance will skyrocket so the cost won’t be a problem as for the judges I have always said a really great judge can judge a brace dog to a large pack speed and style is irrelevant accomplishment should always be be the focus for a good houndsman
     
  19. Robert L. Dunn

    Robert L. Dunn Well-Known Member

    If your club has an AKC sanctioned trial the names of the judges must be approved and disclosed to the public before the trial. There are too many trials and that is why the entries are down. People have too many trials and judges to choose from. Lots of people can find licensed trials within four hours one way from their home. When I first started trialing there were only a few clubs that had a licensed trial so fewer judges were needed. The AKC tried to warn us about clubs having two sanctioned trials but we didnt listen. I was the club secretary of Volunteer Beagle Club at that time and did the application to have an AKC trial. They rejected our request because Music City and Cookeville already had licensed trials and most of our members were also members of their clubs. It was necessary to list the names of club members. Now in the state of Tennessee we have Music City, Volunteer, Cookeville, Wayne County, Jacks Creek, Hiwassee, East Tennessee, TN/VA, TN/KY, West Tennessee and trials in our neighboring states within a four hour drive.

    All the AKC can do about judges is have them attend a seminar and learn from experience. So they have to interpret the rule book and use their own opinion when judging. When I first started judging there were no seminars and to be qualified you had to judge with another person who already had judged in two or more trials. I remember judging a trial and measured a dog. I dont remember if I measured the dog too big or too little but the owner complained and when I looked at the dog standing I saw that the measurement was wrong so I said give me that dog back and I measured it again. Someone watching said the rules only allow you to measure a dog one time. I also remember picking up a dog and the owner called me out and said the dog gets five minutes. Since no one was keeping official time I said seems to me this pack has been down longer than that. In both cases I made a judges decision based on an opinion instead of the rules. Later when the AKC started the seminar most or all clubs had a copy of the latest rule book and one of the judges would carry a copy to the field.

    Just my opinion that the AKC is doing their part but the clubs are not. If you had to pay all the judges with today's entries the club would loose money. If the AKC went back to one trial per year they would begin to loose revenue or else they would have to increase their share per dog on entry fees. Then of course if your club belongs to an association you have to pay a fee with them. That is why this problem is so complex for the clubs. Although I dont think more judges are dishonest than not, just remember the human element. Adam and Eve lied in the garden when they had been instructed to not eat the fruit from one of the trees.
     
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  20. Bowguy 1

    Bowguy 1 Well-Known Member

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    Steep hollar on a slightly dif slant. The ARHA does not announce judges, they don’t normally measure either and imo their apprenticeship is better than the AKC. They’re dif formats w dif rules. It’s def way easier to finish ARHA given those rules but in this area around here the ARHA clubs are all but gone due to lack of entries. And they’d run trials almost bi monthly.
    Possibly you guys may be right but the closest thing to similarity has resulted in folded clubs.
    I’d be interested in at least a sampling of the style you guys spoke of.
    I personally see it not working. But what’s being done now isn’t either so perhaps it’d be worth a try. I am not back peddling to be clear, I still do think it’ll not work but the mind is open to other options
     
  21. will messer

    will messer SUPER MODERATOR Staff Member

    YOU JUST NAILED 50% OF THE PROBLEM !! two styles of judging is creating a mess. STYLE OVER ACCOMPLISHMENT=rulebook hound. ACCOMPLISHMENT OVER STYLE=says its ok to cut--slash--hook---skirt and anything it takes to run more rabbit. WHEN YOU SEE TWO JUDGES ARGUEING====its over the style vs accomplishment issue 98% of the time.
     
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  22. will messer

    will messer SUPER MODERATOR Staff Member

    IN MY OPINION~~ clubs should be 150 to 200 miles apart--and given one trial per year.
    Add 5 bucks to entry fee and have it matched by akc---PAY THE JUDGES. You ever hear the old saying---"you get what you pay for"
    train judges--TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN until everybody is singing off the same page.
    DONT advertise judges---QUALIFIED JUDGES is all that needs to be advertised.
    clarify the rules in the book---don't leave grey areas--eliminate personal judgements as much as possible
    SUPERVISE !!!! if a judge has 3 infractions in a 12 month period have the gonads to walk up and ask for his certification card.
    HOPE I don't get banished from the tribe for my opinions ;-)
     
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  23. Running La. biares

    Running La. biares Well-Known Member

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    Accomplishment over style is leading to more foot in dogs in spo these days