Why?

Discussion in 'The Tailgate' started by Burnett, Aug 1, 2020.

  1. Burnett

    Burnett Well-Known Member

    Ive never understood someone using a female with faults as a brooder.Seems strange to think,ok this female dont hunt or run like i like so ill just raise pups with her because shes out of so and so.What do you think?
     
  2. TJRANGER

    TJRANGER Super Moderator Staff Member

    4,831
    15,968
    Arkansas
    Agree 100% Burnett. Don’t make any sense. I’m a firm believer that the female plays a bigger part in the makeup of the litter. I’ve heard guys say the same thing and think they can take a faulty bitch and breed her with an outstanding stud and get top dogs. Not true!! It’s only on paper and about money.
     

  3. rick Watkins

    rick Watkins Well-Known Member

    If you are just a puppy mill the look is going to be what sells. Hunting ability doesn't count
     
    That, Curnel, Circle4p and 4 others like this.
  4. Otte

    Otte Active Member

    66
    200
    Indiana
    Agree 100%. Had a female at my house about 6 years ago checking it out for a friend. She could smoke a track and really looked good until she lost it an then backtracked the all the way to where she jumped it. Then she ran the track again. The dog was bred to the hilt. Sent here back and the owner gave her away to a guy north of me. He posted her pedigree online and said she had very little faults and sold pups from her.
     
    That, Curnel, Circle4p and 5 others like this.
  5. Grizzly creek beagles

    Grizzly creek beagles Well-Known Member

    Agreed either severely kennel blind or a wanna be “Legendary” breeder/puppy mill hoping to make a name for themselves. But we’re all smart enough to realize that they’re not all perfect every time out and most of us have some degree of faults we will tolerate to an extent but breeding just for the sake of a great set of papers is useless to our sport.
     
    Danny D Piper, That, Curnel and 6 others like this.
  6. LtELmer

    LtELmer Well-Known Member

    That is what we do and think but I have heard and seen exceptions
     
  7. 5 Solas

    5 Solas Well-Known Member

    Only thing I would add is that it is VERY hard to get your first breed-worthy bitch. Up to this year I have only had males. You can always buy male pups that are bred like you like. Not even tough to find double-FC mates male pups. When I made the decision to start owning females so that I can breed my own going forward it was much tougher. Most folks keep their female pups until they prove not to be worth the kennel space. So you almost always end up STARTING with somebody else’s cull. Then you have to work hard to breed it until you get what you want (perhaps multiple generations).
     
  8. Red dog 007

    Red dog 007 Well-Known Member

    some very good points made by all. i have seen some dogs not be the best dog out of their litter. but be the one out of the litter produce pup’s that are a potent producer. better then the better dogs in their litter. that’s just genetics for you. also everyone want’s that million dollar bitch someone own’s. but dont want to give anything for her. they think $350.00 is alot of money for a top bitch they can bred and raise pups from. well guess what . wake up and get in touch with (today.) this isnt 1970. you have to pay to play. your not going to get top of the line brood bitch for puppy price. why would someone sale their good proven female that’s 5 years old for puppy price? their not going to. if your going to get some of that cream of the crop you better be willing to pay what pet owners are willing to pay for a puppy. or quit crying in your beer. how much does that new shot gun your toting around set you back. $800. to $3,000. dollars and want to hunt over a $200.00 dog. you usally get what you pay for. jmo.
     
  9. Grizzly creek beagles

    Grizzly creek beagles Well-Known Member

    Solas I agree with you on finding the right female to start with, as a hunter I could always come up with a pretty good male fairly easy it seemed like but I went through about 12 different females till I found one that I even wanted to breed too.
     
    That, AJ Johnson and Circle4p like this.
  10. Stutz

    Stutz Well-Known Member

    759
    1,289
    TN
    I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Another is that if you've put the time and expense into breeding, raising, starting, training and evaluating a litter... Why wouldn't YOU keep those that please you most? Does that make the rest a cull (unworthy)?

    And then there's next year's litter. Some of those please just as well, perhaps better (as they should)... And someone gets bumped down the depth chart or sold. Is that too a cull now (unworthy)?

    So you post one for sale and then the real fun begins as Red dog 007 stated.
     
  11. 5 Solas

    5 Solas Well-Known Member

    Oh I 100% agree Stutz! The whole idea is to get the best dog out of the litter. I also don’t think somebody else’s cull is always a bad dog for the next guy. Maybe the breeder likes good smoother dogs that focus on line control as one top priority. They get a dog in the litter with a ton of power. It’s too “sloppy” for them, but may be just what the next guy is looking for. Same with the other way around. Maybe a guy is breeding and likes dogs that will move to the front, with plenty of power. He gets this real nice little gyp that doesn’t have any serious faults but is just a tad on the conservative side for him... that is a win-win situation that works for him and the guy who is trying to get his first breeding bitch. If it’s a nice smooth dog but isn’t competitive enough to trial, I think we can work with that. Lol
     
  12. huntnharris

    huntnharris Well-Known Member

    5 and Red dog make very good points and agree with them. My personal thinking is this, we put way to much thought in to breeding period. The foundation is in the genetics sometimes it may skip a generation. I’ve seen top FC females are top titled coon hound females that couldn’t reprove a pet! Seen females that couldn’t do anything produce winners and top gun dogs that money couldn’t buy. All these FC are the current flavor of the month, coon hounds are worst, when it comes to studs. Most studs are chose by how easy it will be to sale pups cause no one wants to be sitting on a litter of pups and no homes for them to go to. If you set down and look at studs numbers, most don’t reproduce at all! When you have a stud that has sired 1000 pups and produce 25 FC, is he really a great stud? Than you have a sire that only produced 100 pups and 10 FC, who’s the better reproducers. Sorry, got to ramblingLOL
    Back to the female. I don’t think it matters if the female is a brood dog, average gun dog/trial dog or a top gun/trial FC. The biggest thing you hear when people ask about an upcoming breeding is “it looks good on paper” but it’s like rolling dice in Vegas, either a big winner and look like a genius or a big loser and look like a fool for you decision
     
    That, AJ Johnson, Seark and 5 others like this.
  13. brewer69

    brewer69 Well-Known Member

    646
    1,611
    Maryland
    Amen you see it all the time , makes no sense, if I wouldn’t be proud to hunt her I certainly wouldn’t breed her
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  14. duke1

    duke1 Well-Known Member

    I think most folks have unrealistic hopes in this case. I have seen plenty dogs produce better than what they were (reason for being a brood) but that is not the norm. If you find a trailer/breeder that has the same line for 20 years and you buy a pup. Most times you will find several dogs that have not finished for one reason or another but were "good enough to breed". I dont agree with breeding trash, but i do agree with breeding to improve a good dog...
     
  15. wad

    wad Well-Known Member

    3,254
    3,941
    Il.
    Would a weak poor voice keep you from breeding if all the other qualities are there? Does voice pass on
     
  16. Spini Boys

    Spini Boys Moderator

    Lots of folks just breed Milly to Willy every chance they get. Took me 5 years to find another female to breed. Finally have 2 nice males worthy of passing on their genes and one nice female. I look at everything, how they hunt/run, conformation, pedigree. Its hard to find a nice breeding pair and some folks don't want to put that work into it. I also wont breed until they have a hunting season under their belt, if there are faults that will show them.
     
  17. TRK

    TRK Well-Known Member

    I agree with what most have said. Some people line up papers and forget the most important part and that is selecting the best individual with that pedigree to breed. When line breeding, selecting the proper individual is what steers the direction that line of dogs is going. If you are using the poorest individuals from that line, that is the direction you are headed. That is why we have to be very selective and really look at which individuals we are breeding, not just the pedigrees.
    I have seen where some people think the price of pups is too low. This is partly because there are too many females being bred. Supply and demand determine the price. I have heard guys say they didn't like their female but they were going to get a litter of pups out of her before they got rid of her. That makes no sense to me.
     
    mitch huguet, That, Seark and 6 others like this.
  18. semnhunter

    semnhunter Well-Known Member

    1,408
    4,757
    MN
    I agree with you Burnett, but who of can't find a fault in our wives yet we breed them every chance we get:D
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
    Jimlerminez, That, Curnel and 4 others like this.
  19. rienmark

    rienmark Well-Known Member

    does this mean you shouldn't breed a female that isn't the total package?
     
    mitch huguet, That and Circle4p like this.
  20. Addi

    Addi Well-Known Member

    I never understood why someone would feed one that had severe faults.
    If she is mouthy, won't hunt, nor circle a rabbit then she is a pet, not a rabbit dog nor brood bitch.