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The Gray Scale

1537 Views 22 Replies 12 Participants Last post by  Huntsman
I was curious to find out if anyone on here uses the Gray scale system for their trial and hunting dog breeding programs? Ive been reading a lot about it
and to me it seems like this system is hard to beat for progressing the ability of a line of hounds. But I am curious on other opinions of it.
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Sounds like an interesting topic, but I am not familiar with a Gray Scale. Instead of us trying to Google it, maybe you could educate us?
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Iam interested in that theory also
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I like the hound evaluation sheet he used. If a guy is honest with his hounds it's a great measuring tool.
His breeding chart is just a line breeding system. Seems logical. Only problem I see with his methods and system is it seems like dogs would be treated more as a disposable commodity.
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here is the article about his system. For those that are interested in his system.

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I like the hound evaluation sheet he used. If a guy is honest with his hounds it's a great measuring tool.
His breeding chart is just a line breeding system. Seems logical. Only problem I see with his methods and system is it seems like dogs would be treated more as a disposable commodity.
There would definitely be a lot of culls. But again he was trying to achieve the best of the best. He wanted every generation to be better than the previous one.
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Here is another article on the topic as well.

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I like the following,

"Many people simply try too hard and attempt to do too much and make attempts to intervene and intercede at every turn on the behalf of their “well bred” hound.

For a moment let’s go “old school” and take a page out of the training manual of the great beagle trainers from yester-year… leave the dogs alone.

Their theory was a very simple one, if you take a beagle that possesses the proper “inherited traits” and put them where rabbits are they will develop the proper “acquired traits” to be a complete hound, as nature takes its course.

The problem
is when impatient and/or unknowledgeable trainers intervene and attempt “short cuts” and use overcrowded, overpopulated and unnatural starting pens {though there are some nice training pens} along with faulty older dogs to train pups and young dogs which have a negative impact.

I also would like to point out, {though training collars can be a life saver} more people misuse a training collar then actually use it right, along with all the calling, harking, squawking and noise making in the field. The road to nowhere is paved with “good intentions” with a dash of “a lack of wisdom”.

Also, some beaglers are more committed to a certain bloodline, kennel name or a famous dog of yester-year, to the extent that paperwork, pedigrees and kennel surnames are more important to them then what the dog actual possesses concerning the actual “inherited” traits in the field.

(The only cure is getting back to the basics with having high demands and strict culling to achieve, maintain and reproduce.)
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I like the following,

"Many people simply try too hard and attempt to do too much and make attempts to intervene and intercede at every turn on the behalf of their “well bred” hound.

For a moment let’s go “old school” and take a page out of the training manual of the great beagle trainers from yester-year… leave the dogs alone.

Their theory was a very simple one, if you take a beagle that possesses the proper “inherited traits” and put them where rabbits are they will develop the proper “acquired traits” to be a complete hound, as nature takes its course.

The problem
is when impatient and/or unknowledgeable trainers intervene and attempt “short cuts” and use overcrowded, overpopulated and unnatural starting pens {though there are some nice training pens} along with faulty older dogs to train pups and young dogs which have a negative impact.

I also would like to point out, {though training collars can be a life saver} more people misuse a training collar then actually use it right, along with all the calling, harking, squawking and noise making in the field. The road to nowhere is paved with “good intentions” with a dash of “a lack of wisdom”.

Also, some beaglers are more committed to a certain bloodline, kennel name or a famous dog of yester-year, to the extent that paperwork, pedigrees and kennel surnames are more important to them then what the dog actual possesses concerning the actual “inherited” traits in the field.

(The only cure is getting back to the basics with having high demands and strict culling to achieve, maintain and reproduce.)
LIKE LIKE LIKE (y) (y) (y) LOL
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The Gray scale system looks pretty simple and is probably a very good system for evaluating breeding stock as long as we are honest with ourselves.
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The Gray scale system looks pretty simple and is probably a very good system for evaluating breeding stock as long as we are honest with ourselves.
Was my thoughts as well.
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Was my thoughts as well.
Hopefully it will get rid of Kennel Blindness. JMHO
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I would evaluate hounds on many more traits than just desire, nose and intelligence. Lane mentioned voice and conformation, and I would certainly add those, as well as traits like biddability, deer resistance, search, and size. Even pedigree. The trick in breeding hounds is to get as many of those traits as possible into the same hound - no easy task, so in every hound, some deficiencies have to be accepted. We strive for perfection and never really get there, but we keep trying with each new litter.
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Like the article said if you have the 3 basic traits of intelligence, nose, and desire everything else should pretty much line up. You mention search, that should be covered by desire. Trash resistant would show intelligence and biddability to me is a good mix of desire and intelligence. I like the idea of making a chart for each dog in my kennel, I'm sure you could add a few other things to it but I do believe its a pretty solid guideline.
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I like the old timers’ term gameness in place of desire. Frank Reese’ stud ads always ended with “We breed for type and gameness”, a throwback to his fox hunting days, I think.

I have three very pretty black and tan sisters running in my pack today who are in the thick of all the action no matter how long and hard the running goes, and do a good job of it. But none of the three search worth a darn, and as a result none will ever be bred. They are an example of why I would want BOTH desire/gameness and search on my evaluation sheet.
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I like the old timers’ term gameness in place of desire. Frank Reese’ stud ads always ended with “We breed for type and gameness”, a throwback to his fox hunting days, I think.

Gameness was a popular term used by the old guys I used to run foxhounds with. Many dogs were culled (shot) for lack of gameness. The gamey dogs would run all night and many times into the morning till they literally dropped. And when they dropped it would be 8-10 hours before they could get up and make their way in. We spent a lot of time waiting and looking for dogs, even in the pens. When I got tracking collars it saved me a lot of time and gas money.
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I like the old timers’ term gameness in place of desire.
Me Too!

The following is IMO only. I will attempt to put in words.

Gameness is a place far beyond desire.

Desire wants to keep going but can’t, don’t or won’t for a multitude of reasons.

Gameness…finds, makes a way where there is no way.

Gameness starts, takes over where desire ends leaves off.

Gameness goes beyond the natural.

Gameness is a Power.

Many times, Gameness is an unexpected, explosive Power!

Gameness…the average person even many hound owners and breeders today may not fully understand the implication of this word for many reasons which I will not go into on this board.

Gameness is a thrilling, exciting and sometimes shocking virtue to witness. You will not soon forget it if you witness it in its raw form. The gamer the performance the more shocking, thrilling, exciting and memorable. Once you witness it you will never be, see or accept things the same.

Gameness is the panicle of complete and total defiance against defeat.

Deep to Dead gameness is less coveted and rarer today than in times past.

Gameness can be bred for along with a long list of other highly important traits, virtues not normally mentioned in beagle conversations today as it is not needed for most games and pleasures people use beagles for.

For some Gameness is a highly coveted extremely sought-after commodity, virtue, (trait) to those that have witnessed and understand its full potential and priceless value. When it comes right down to it gameness is preferred by some over all else even ability as ability is so much easier to acquire and maintain.

Gameness is NOT.

Gameness is an attitude a Mental State of Being…Living or Dying makes no difference. Game individuals come in all shapes, sizes, sexes, and ranges of ability or lack of from extremely talented to no natural talent. Each can be very different and unique.

Sometimes, many times gameness is the difference between success and failure. Gameness can set an individual far above its competition with all other things being equal or not equal, but gameness always gives you an edge for success a (HOPE) especially in HOPE-LESS situations. This is especially true when competing against non-game individuals no matter how talented, trained and conditioned they are if they do not possess it or to your degree.

I have noticed in animals and people many times…Game individuals have a very high pain threshold.

Individuals with a proven (LOW) threshold for pain that are found to be (proven) Deep Game or Dead Game have always fascinated me tremendously. They are not logical but are very real.

Gameness like Gun Shyness comes in degrees. There are different thresholds (Degrees of Gameness) the same is true for Gun Shyness.

The difference between Deep Game and Dead Game. I will attempt to put in my own words from my own experience.

The following are two Examples:

A Deep Game individual- Will continue at its task until complete and total exhaustion all physical resources depleted, and no noticeable chance of success exist…AND…Will…(Quit) (Stop) (Give Up) when it gets extremely close to the point of death. It should be noted that extremely Deep Game individuals may still die from the experience without prompt professional medical attention and even then, some may not survive.

A Dead Game individual - As the name implies will continue until death making any and every kind of attempts to succeed doing whatever it is doing with all of its being no matter the circumstances, chance of success, physical condition, or lack of it. Death is inevitable if you do not intervene to stop it in time. It should be noted that individuals are only suspect of being dead game as long as they are alive. The only proof of Being Dead Game is dying in the act. It is an after the fact realization.

The average NON-GAME individual… The QUITTER, regardless of the high level of natural talent, ability, endurance and so on will perform until they have mentally and or emotionally or physically succumb had enough and or are becoming, frustrated, uninterested, hopeless and or too uncomfortable. At some point they just Stop \ Quit while being (quite far from…unable… to continue.)

It should be noted that this may be after a very hard and lengthy period time, but it is still Quitting. Some just go further \ longer than others before they Lose Game and Quit. This is where people start making excuses for Quitters, non-game individuals especially if they are talented, gifted athletes that do extremely well while performing prior to Quitting.

Deep Gameness to Dead Gameness can set an individual far above its competition with all other things being equal or not equal but always gives an edge. Especially when competing against non-game individuals or other game individuals that do not possess it to your degree. A game dog for example if not monitored will bring itself well past the point of over exhaustion and its ability to recover, survive.
================================================================

Testing for Gameness

First off this should never be done by a novice.

Game testing can be performed different ways.

My personal preference is to test for gameness without prior conditioning or training, without getting the individual in any un-natural shape. The more natural and out of shape the individual is the quicker we get down to its breeding (natural gameness) or lack of it.

Game testing an individual in the as-is configuration (condition) moves the test forward in a timelier manner past the natural physical ability and to the point of physical exhaustion (The Game Check Test Measurement Phase) much quicker.

This is the point where you can begin your evaluation for gameness and the depth of it if it exists at all because that is all that is left for the individual being tested to draw from at this point as all other resources are fully and completely depleted. At this point all that is left to continue with…is gameness if they have any. If they don’t they quit\stop\ give up

It is important to note that No individual is automatically game just because the trait was historically encouraged through breeding.
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Mitch went to town on gameness! I’d say that man believes it’s important!

What about speed, or better yet, PACE? Should an evaluation on a hound give credit to an individual who can run a rabbit at the same pace solo as he does in pack? Pace is sometimes tied to conformation, as better conformation makes sustaining pace easier, but it can also be tied to nose, desire, etc?
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I like the concept of "Pace" rather than speed or power.

Does the hound show a sense of urgency?
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I like the following,

"Many people simply try too hard and attempt to do too much and make attempts to intervene and intercede at every turn on the behalf of their “well bred” hound.

For a moment let’s go “old school” and take a page out of the training manual of the great beagle trainers from yester-year… leave the dogs alone.

Their theory was a very simple one, if you take a beagle that possesses the proper “inherited traits” and put them where rabbits are they will develop the proper “acquired traits” to be a complete hound, as nature takes its course.

The problem
is when impatient and/or unknowledgeable trainers intervene and attempt “short cuts” and use overcrowded, overpopulated and unnatural starting pens {though there are some nice training pens} along with faulty older dogs to train pups and young dogs which have a negative impact.

I also would like to point out, {though training collars can be a life saver} more people misuse a training collar then actually use it right, along with all the calling, harking, squawking and noise making in the field. The road to nowhere is paved with “good intentions” with a dash of “a lack of wisdom”.

Also, some beaglers are more committed to a certain bloodline, kennel name or a famous dog of yester-year, to the extent that paperwork, pedigrees and kennel surnames are more important to them then what the dog actual possesses concerning the actual “inherited” traits in the field.

(The only cure is getting back to the basics with having high demands and strict culling to achieve, maintain and reproduce.)
I like the following,

"Many people simply try too hard and attempt to do too much and make attempts to intervene and intercede at every turn on the behalf of their “well bred” hound.

For a moment let’s go “old school” and take a page out of the training manual of the great beagle trainers from yester-year… leave the dogs alone.

Their theory was a very simple one, if you take a beagle that possesses the proper “inherited traits” and put them where rabbits are they will develop the proper “acquired traits” to be a complete hound, as nature takes its course.

The problem
is when impatient and/or unknowledgeable trainers intervene and attempt “short cuts” and use overcrowded, overpopulated and unnatural starting pens {though there are some nice training pens} along with faulty older dogs to train pups and young dogs which have a negative impact.

I also would like to point out, {though training collars can be a life saver} more people misuse a training collar then actually use it right, along with all the calling, harking, squawking and noise making in the field. The road to nowhere is paved with “good intentions” with a dash of “a lack of wisdom”.

Also, some beaglers are more committed to a certain bloodline, kennel name or a famous dog of yester-year, to the extent that paperwork, pedigrees and kennel surnames are more important to them then what the dog actual possesses concerning the actual “inherited” traits in the field.

(The only cure is getting back to the basics with having high demands and strict culling to achieve, maintain and reproduce.)
Some of you may recall seeing an add years ago McDonald's Black and Tans which John McDonald ran in sports magazines where he stated " training not necessary just exposure to the desired game" . Obviously there's a bit more to it but I have never forgotten that advertisement of his 🤔
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