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what’s everyone’s opinion. or how do you add new blood into your linebred hounds.do you add new blood through the male side? or do you add new blood from your female side? or both? and can you explain why?
You could do it either way - by breeding to a male or by adding a new female. I don't know it makes a big difference, although maybe some traits are sex-linked, so may come through the male side or female side only. I like to keep strong female lines going, so would usually outcross to a male. However, you could start a new female line in your kennel with an unrelated (outcross) female.

Outcrosses should always be considered an experiment, with an "escape" plan if it doesn't work, and a follow-up plan if it does. They need to be done carefully - don't put all your eggs in the same basket. Keep your regular linebreeding program going at the same time you experiment with the outcross. Outcross your linebred hounds to others from another linebred family. Better to breed to hounds where the others in his/her litter were good also. Look for a good family, not just a great individual.

If you want to add a new trait or traits to your line and think an outcross is necessary for that to happen, the best method is to take the outcross offspring and breed them back into your line in the next generation. In other words, you go out for a generation, then come back in for the next two or three, while hopefully retaining the trait you sought to pick up. Some people just keep making outcrosses generation after generation, which creates scattered genetics and makes it hard to "set" a particular type.
 

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Robert Wehle, who bred the Elhew Pointers, wrote an excellent book called "Snakefoot: The Making of a Champion" something like 20 years ago. For anyone wanting dog breeding knowledge, this book is highly recommended if you can still find a copy.
 

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You could do it either way - by breeding to a male or by adding a new female. I don't know it makes a big difference, although maybe some traits are sex-linked, so may come through the male side or female side only. I like to keep strong female lines going, so would usually outcross to a male. However, you could start a new female line in your kennel with an unrelated (outcross) female.

Outcrosses should always be considered an experiment, with an "escape" plan if it doesn't work, and a follow-up plan if it does. They need to be done carefully - don't put all your eggs in the same basket. Keep your regular linebreeding program going at the same time you experiment with the outcross. Outcross your linebred hounds to others from another linebred family. Better to breed to hounds where the others in his/her litter were good also. Look for a good family, not just a great individual.

If you want to add a new trait or traits to your line and think an outcross is necessary for that to happen, the best method is to take the outcross offspring and breed them back into your line in the next generation. In other words, you go out for a generation, then come back in for the next two or three, while hopefully retaining the trait you sought to pick up. Some people just keep making outcrosses generation after generation, which creates scattered genetics and makes it hard to "set" a particular type.
Well stated Huntsman- I have read the Snakefoot, The making of a champion book, its some where in our house.
The Elhew program was a top kennel with its breeding program, many FC came from that blood line. JMHO
 

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PERSONALLY ~ I like to use a female line bred with the qualities i like----breed out to a line bred male with the talent i want----go thru the litter and if it "clicked"----breed the gyps back into my BC/SF
have done it both ways and had good luck but using female BC/SF is my preffered method
 

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Red Dog
I am not an expert ( drip under pressure). I typically keep my male stud dog and I am really happy with (tracker) who is Buckshot Jones and Top Shelf. I really like his coloring , his kennel manners, his personality ( happy, works well with other dogs, minds really well), he throws really pretty pups and they have all been quick starters and easy starters. On top of that he is really a good hunting dog. So I bring in new bitches to my kennel. I got one little bitch from you, one that came through Dry Creek. I have also taken the approach to breeding Tracker to some friends bitches. Breed to one Of Ronnie Burnett dogs that I really liked her hurt but she was Big Nose. Took a female bitch as stud fee and she is my new favorite dog. Is is going to be special and she is ticked. Took a male from Rance bitch ( now owned by AJ ) that was Cadillac Jack breeding. I am lucky in that all the puppies came from my male and bitches I had hunted over.
Messes up a little right now because I have more males than I like to keep but I am going into next season with basically 2 packs.
So I know the bitches capability and I like to outcross with good lines.
Now the exception, as well as I like my male he throws great pups, he has never thrown a red or chocolate pup. The next time I breed Rachel Red or when I bred Ramona ( the chocolate pup I got from you I am going to find a red nose male. Hopefully from somebody I know on this site.
I also will say I have a grade female that I registered thru UKC that has proved to be a great mother and whelps good hunting dogs. Just a step faster than my other dogs.
Closing I look for the bitch ability in the field and then worry about her lineage.
 

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To add another bit of advice to what has already been mentioned, I would suggest you look for your outcrosses from people you can trust. It does no good to carefully linebreed your hounds, for years, then to outcross to a dog whose pedigree is suspect because of shady actions by previous owners. You want to breed where you are sure the pedigrees are accurate. Therefore, the pedigree of the owner is just as important as the pedigree of the hound you are considering.

Ronnie Wallace, famous English foxhound breeder, said "One characteristic of a good hound breeder is that he is suspicious. I would never use a dog, no matter how nice he was as an individual, from a kennel which I did not think was tip-top, unless it was some blood of ours that I wanted to get back". In other words, be suspicious of the chance-bred hound. Look instead for individuals from strong families/pedigrees, and deal only with good people.
 

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One thing I have noticed while studying the Weir Creek pedigrees is how they often followed the outcross with a father daughter cross. Ericson's Lola was bred to Travelon Autumn Frost. A female from this cross was bred back to her father Frost which produced Weir Creek Sue. Sue was bred to Fish Creek Little Red and produced Weir Creek Trudy. Trudy was bred back to her father Little Red and that produced Weir Creek Ruff. Ruff was the father of Weir Creek Buzz. Buzz was bred to Indian Creek Blackie which produced Horn Lake Katy. Katy was bred back to her father Buzz which produced Phil's Pattie Ann. Pattie Ann was bred to Phil's Red who was also out of Buzz, this cross produced Ward's Boggie Holler Tessie. Tessie produced a lot of dogs that show up in a lot of Weir Creek pedigrees that I won't name because anyone who has read this far is probably wore out.

So they were doing what you guys posted by following up an outcross with close breeding.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
thanks will, rick & huntsman for your responce’s and good information you shared with us. so what i have absorbed from this post and the information from the one’s that shared their knowledge is some have a strong bitch line and some have a strong male line. or both if lucky enough to. their really is no wrong side to outcross to bring new blood into your hounds. it depends on your preference and which is the strongest line in your kennel . (the male side or the female side.) and breed from a solid hound in the field that represents what you like to the best of your ability. and breed to a good solid family hound of whichever sex. (male or female) that brings something to your kennel of hounds that hopefully improves or compliments your hounds in their weakest area without loosing all of their strong area’s.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
ok everyone, so we have talked about out crossing. so what are some of the tell tell signs that you look for that tells you it’s time to outcross? is their a formula or method you use? like after line breeding to a perticular hound in your pedigree’s for 3 generations you outcross? or do you just go off what you are seeing in your litter? i realise some have been line breeding within a family of hounds for some time. and may have a method or system figured out that works best for you. please share .
 

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study long and hard the dogs behind the breeding pair----WHAT did they bring to the table to be considered? dig---dig---dig---get all the info you can before the breeding. when pups are born---KEEP THEM ALL CLOSE and observe them----did you get the good qualities you wanted----how many bad qualities came along for the journey?
Once the breeding is made you darn well better like what you got befor breeding it into your dogs----once you get it infused in your bloodline it will take 7 years to breed it out and even then you get a "throw back"
 

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ok everyone, so we have talked about out crossing. so what are some of the tell tell signs that you look for that tells you it’s time to outcross? is their a formula or method you use? like after line breeding to a perticular hound in your pedigree’s for 3 generations you outcross? or do you just go off what you are seeing in your litter? i realise some have been line breeding within a family of hounds for some time. and may have a method or system figured out that works best for you. please share .
Tough question to answer, but I will give my thoughts and then maybe more others will chime in also. I have no set formula. I now go many years between full outcrosses. I did more outcrosses 30 years ago when I was trying to gather the bloodlines I admired so I could carry them forward into the future. Mostly these were lines I had seen while judging SPO trials, which is a great way to acquire knowledge about what you want (and don't want) in your own kennel. After I had the lines I wanted in the kennel, I went outside less and less, and seldom go out today. Everyone's situation is different, so you may already have what you need right from the start. But you should never be totally satisfied - there is always something you can improve in your hounds.

I prefer now to work with a partial outcross, meaning the hound I am breeding to is related to mine, but has some lines in his/her pedigree that are different from mine. Outcrosses give you hybrid vigor, so you may get a super hound in that first generation after the cross, but outbreeding also scatters the genetics you already have, so they need to be done carefully and only after much research into the lines you will be introducing into yours. Outcrosses can also be failures and have to be discarded. And I agree with Will, sometimes it can take years to get it out of your kennels. (Been there and done that!)

Speaking of research, if you find the owner of the outcross hounds you want to use will not openly discuss with you the positives and negatives of his/her line, you may want to look elsewhere. There is nothing worse than the owner who hides information, perhaps for his/her own gain, and lets you find out later about a serious problem you have injected into your lines. An example might be something like not mentioning the hound you want to use will sometimes have epileptic seizures, and the dog's grandsire had them too. Maybe that's a poor example, so it could be just that his line has poor feet, or bleeds heavily when hunted, or is known to die by age 10, or sometimes produces bad bites, cherry eyes, etc, etc. Better to deal with honest, open people you can trust to tell you what you need to know. No hound or bloodline is perfect and without weaknesses in some way. As Will said above, dig, dig.

The more satisfied you become with your own lines, the more reluctant you will become to add new lines. It may also get to be harder and harder to find other lines that interest you, or that you think will add something positive to your lines. When you do find an outcross that works, you may decide to add more of that bloodline later, but the second and third time it's not really an outcross any more, is it?

I think the time to outcross is when you decide there is something lacking in your hounds that you cannot get from within. For example, some of my biggest outcrosses have been to show champions to add conformation to my hounds. I knew I could get conformation quickly that way, as opposed to breeding and selecting for it using only my own lines. We don't have the lifespans of Methuselah, so sometimes an outcross is preferable to selecting for a trait over time. You might decide you want more size in your hounds, or stronger noses, or more hunt/search, or whatever, and maybe the best way to get it is to crossbreed to a GREAT INDIVIDUAL from a FAMILY that is known to be strong in the trait your hound lines might be needing. If you know that individual is a strong producer of that trait, all the better.

Just remember the outcross will likely bring other traits too, so some culling of the offspring may need to happen. If you can't cull, you should not try your hand at breeding, because sooner or later you will need to cull hounds from your program. But culling does not have to mean you are putting hounds down. Often a cull to you will be a brag hound for someone else. I used to smile when I would hear John New refer to FC. Indian Hills Majer as a "cull dog", knowing how the rest of us felt about Majer (a dog John was breeder of). The Walker brothers, when developing their famous Kentucky foxhound lines, were known to cull severely, in ways most of us would not have a heart to do today. Times were different then, but that does not mean culling is no longer important to a breeder.

Outcrossing should make you a little nervous. It takes courage. Sometimes you might rather let someone else try it first.
 

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I have a question for you guys who are more knowledgeable on breeding. I know Red dog is breeding dogs that have a lot of Weir Creek behind them. Would you consider it an outcross if he bred one of his females to a male that had no common ancestors in four generations but still had Weir Creek Buzz 40 times in his pedigree. How about no common ancestors for five generations? When I look at some of my pedigrees I don't see a lot of line breeding up close but when I get deep into them a lot of times the same dog will show up 30 to 50 times but it is way back.
 
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