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Hunt can be improved

9K views 51 replies 14 participants last post by  Huntsman 
#1 · (Edited)
I really don't know if a dog can be taught to hunt, I think the word taught should be taken out what a dog needs is opportunity and time, I mean after all what are you going to do to teach her to hunt get down on all fours and put your nose to the ground ? and tell your dog look this is how it's done, that would be teaching, I do however believe a dogs hunt can be improved, case in fact I purchased a 12 in Indian Hills jip a couple years ago I went to the man's house he got the dog out of the pen and put it in an approximately 2 acre running pin she immediately went into the thickest part jumped the rabbit and I fell in love with the way she ran a rabbit, fast forward to hunting season, she is an above medium speed dog I took her with three other dogs to one of my holes to make a long story short I was not impressed with her hunt at all, she hunted at times and at other times stood around, she was really pissing me off But as time went on she improved a little bit she was a different style of Hunter then I am used to she hunts fairly close where I could see her and when she hunted she hunted fair but still sometimes she stood around, to make a long story short after 2 years I have seen major improvements in her hunt, I thought by looking at her papers she should have some hunt and she did she only needed more opportunity, more tracks more rabbits killed in front of her xcetera, when I look back on it I think if she was started in the wild she would have developed her hunt quicker I think that small pin gave her a lot of running experience but not much hunting experience which I think she wanted to do but she just didn't know it yet anyway she is 3 years old now and has good hunt I did not teach her to hunt I gave her the opportunity to hunt and bring out something that was already inside her ! Is she a true jump dog?....... No but she hunts. I'm a Believer hunt can be improved
 
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#18 · (Edited)

This was the real deal Indian Hills Major stuff that I use to own, back in the day. Dogs bred to hunt, with a lot of Large Pack breeding, but placed in SPO trials back in the 80's to early 90's. Hundreds of rabbits were killed under these dogs.

........................CH Confer's Speck Of Dynamite
..................Playfair Cadet
........................Showfield Winkie
............Little Rowdy VI
.........................Famous Amos VII
..................Wells Vickey
........................Doolan's Princess
......FC Indian Hills Majer
........................Bell Mouth Tony
..................Lord Buckingham VI
........................Allmand's Fancy Girl
............New City Crystal
........................Oxcreek Rex
..................New City Tammy
........................Northwood's Blackie
Campy's Jasper Maser (HM26269801) Owner: John Taylor, Leonville, La.
Campy's Lil Ann Majer (HM26269803) Owner: John Taylor
........................FC Line Elm Bimbo
..................FC Adirondack Bobby
.......................FC Adirondack Judy
............Jordan's Adirondack Charlie
........................FC Doylands Little Sport
..................FC Adirondack Vickie
........................FC Adirondack Judy
......Bayou Teche Little Molly (breeder: John Taylor)
........................FC Dingus Macrae
..................Templet's Little Mac
........................FC Dingus Macrae
............J R's Bayou Bank Sugar
........................FC North Bend Billy Grimshaw
..................FC Henrys Gypsy Rose
........................Amys Lucky Penny


.........................Little Rowdy VI
..................FC Indian Hills Majer
........................New City Crystal
............Swampland Major
........................Malone's Talking Andrew
..................Webb's Creek Run Texas
........................Little Ireland's Killey Dare
......FC Herb's Rambling Man
........................Glynns Smooth On Simon
..................Bens Creek Sparkey
........................The Texas Molly
............Faul's Bayou Mallet Annie
........................FC Glynns Gay Demon
..................Paul's Polly
........................Sudon's Gertrude
Campy's Bayou Bank Casey (HM30942803) Owner: John Taylor, Leonville, La.
........................Skullfork Reddy Teddy
..................Rocky Hill Red Bandit
........................Barlow's Missie
............ INT. FC Horse Shoe Driver
........................Little Bit Skipper
..................Lee Bayou Tiny
........................Carli's Edna
......Campy's Lil Driver
........................Blackcreek Teddy
..................Blackcreek Rocky
........................Mac's Shades MT Honey
............Glynns Little June
........................Blackcreek Bojo
..................Blackcreek Ann
........................Blackcreek Lady VII

.........................Little Rowdy VI
..................FC Indian Hills Majer
........................New City Crystal
............Swampland Major
........................Malone's Talking Andrew
..................Webb's Creek Run Texas
........................Little Ireland's Killey Dare
......FC Herb's Rambling Man
........................Glynns Smooth On Simon
..................Bens Creek Sparkey
........................The Texas Molly
............Faul's Bayou Mallet Annie
........................FC Glynns Gay Demon
..................Paul's Polly
........................Sudon's Gertrude
Campy's Roving Man (HM44064703) (Owner & Breeder: John Taylor, Leonville, La.
..............................CH Confer's Speck Of Dynamite
........................Playfair Cadet
..............................Showfield Winkie
..................Little Rowdy VI
...............................Famous Amos VII
........................Wells Vickey
..............................Doolan's Princess
............FC Indian Hills Majer
..............................Bell Mouth Tony
........................Lord Buckingham VI
..............................Allmand's Fancy Girl
..................New City Crystal
..............................Oxcreek Rex
........................New City Tammy
..............................Northwood's Blackie
......Campy's Lil Ann Majer (HM26269803) Owner: John Taylor
..............................FC Line Elm Bimbo
........................FC Adirondack Bobby
.............................FC Adirondack Judy
..................Jordan's Adirondack Charlie
..............................FC Doylands Little Sport
........................FC Adirondack Vickie
..............................FC Adirondack Judy
............Bayou Teche Little Molly (breeder: John Taylor)
..............................FC Dingus Macrae
........................Templet's Little Mac
..............................Cane Country Hope
..................J R's Bayou Bank Sugar
..............................FC North Bend Billy Grimshaw
........................FC Henrys Gypsy Rose
..............................Amys Lucky Penny


........................Swamp Run Buzz
..................South Fork Jojo
........................Gordons Little Bonnie
............Blackcreek Bojo
........................Blackcreek Joe III
..................Blackcreek Polly II
........................Skullfork Countiss
......Glynns Smooth On Buck
........................Swamp Run Buzz
..................South Fork Jojo
........................Gordons Little Bonnie
............Blackcreek Lady VII
.......................Blackcreek Joe III
..................Blackcreek Dolly II
........................Skullfork Countiss
Trahans Bayou Teche Buck (HM37559113) Owner: John Taylor, Leonville, La.
........................Playfair Cadet
..................Little Rowdy VI
........................Wells Vickey
............FC Indian Hills Majer
........................Lord Buckingham VI
..................New City Crystal
........................New City Tammy
......Indian Hill Tilly
........................Valar's Fearless Fred
..................Walts Little Fred
........................Cry Baby XXXV
............Indian Hills Donna
........................FC Hurtt's Padroe
..................J And J Bell Of The Ball
........................Dolly Of Sky Chief
 
#7 ·
One of the better pedigrees I have seem on here.

I have seen a lot of hounds learn to be better searchers as they get older. I think it shows intelligence that the hound is learning what it needs to do to have a chase. I think you can expect her to continue to improve.
I thought it was a decent pedigree although I don't know much about the Fcmark v Ace in the Hole dog
 
#6 ·
Here’s something interesting if not really usable. One of my buddies had these German Shepard track dogs. I forget exactly the intent but tracking was def part. When they didn’t get it there was a pole he told me with a noose of sorts. Almost like a catch pole. They’d hook the dog up and drag their nose to the ground. In a sense they did teach them to actually hunt. Not to detract from the original intent but reading made me think of that
 
#9 ·
IFC Mark V’s Ace in the Hole was a 13 inch Midwest Association field champion, and I think made IFC in Canada. His sire was FC Mark V Snoopy, who was mostly southern breeding....Fred Gray’s line, with Skullfork crossed on hare breeding. Snoopy had hounds like Fish Creek Mr Jones, FC Grayline Mike, FC Bonefish Tom, FC Joacyns Elvira (a great one), and Gray’s Buck behind him.

Ace’s dam was FC Salt River Wrinkle, who was a sister to FC Salt River Lilly. Both owned by Sam Fisher in KY. Both are in Indian Hills Abraham’s pedigree. Wrinkle and Lilly are granddaughters of FC Indian Hills Majer crossed on FC Dingus Macrae and just old cottontail hunting breeding.

Indian Hills Abraham was a brother to FC Indian Hills Trapper. Another brother was Indian Hills Gator. They had three crosses of FC Indian Hills Majer fairly close up. All good stuff!
 
#13 ·
I could go on and on about this pedigree. I see FC Black Point Bessie. She was from Michigan, and has a hare hound pedigree second to none, in my option, with lots of Joe Corulo’s Colby Hill breeding crossed on FC Northway Spur. Good stuff.

Also I see a Wells Woods hound, which would be Greg Wells from Kentucky. Greg was a young man who died unexpectedly this summer and really shook up a lot of us.

Anyway, good pedigree for rabbit hunting dogs. Speed with control. Hope you can breed her to more of the same lines.
 
#20 ·
Good stuff, John. Wish you had kept that going. I remember stud ads for FC Herb’s Rambling Man and thinking what an interesting pedigree.

And I see Valar’s Fearless Fred in there, bred by Larry Carter, owned and trialed by Walter Johnson. I judged him many times at early Midwest trials, around the same time Majer was running.

And Irvin and Cora’s Malone’s Talking Andrew crossed on one of their good Little Ireland bitches, Killey Dare. I judged a licensed big male class with Irvin at Great Miami that took us parts of three days - a huge class and we gave them all a long look. I think that may have been the trial FC Andy’s Clover Patches won. I enjoyed Irvin and Cora, but both faded from the scene after the marriage ended. They did a lot to get the Deep South trials started. Cora was a talented writer/artist. She visited me several years ago looking for a hound for her grandson.

Wish I could breed to a Swampland Major today!
 
#49 · (Edited)
Good stuff, John. Wish you had kept that going. I remember stud ads for FC Herb’s Rambling Man and thinking what an interesting pedigree.
Oh its' still running in the Marshes of South Louisiana every year day in and day out. That blood still runs deep behind many a good hounds in the Deep South.

Rabbit Hunters have it.

People won't probably see it in hunting test on a Saturday morning.....put on by the AKC though. Not usuallyt. These hounds are working on the weekend not playing. They are earning a living for themselves and their owners. You have to load up in an air boat or marsh buggy or 20 foot flat boat to watch these guys perform under the GUN!

I let friend of mine who is a hunting guide get a good male 4 years ago for his pack. He needed a real "Jump Dog" for his Marsh guide business. I had two good 2 year old males and a bitch descended from many of these old kind of dogs bred to my dogs. I let him purchase one of the males that I had two of and retained breeding rights.

This good old HUTING BLOOD even shows up in the back of hounds that place in and win the AKC Nationals....people just don't know the pedigrees behind all the winning and placing hounds so they don't speak of it or check on it. Some of the SPO guys would roll over in their graves if they knew what just beat them.

Some of you guys in KY and TN would be shocked at how some of the hounds in past years were bred (in the back) of their pedigree that won and placed in the AKC Nationals and the Deep South if you dug down to the roots of some of those hounds from down here.

That's why I say to young people starting out all the time what do YOU want beagles for???? not what does your buddies or SPO or Brace or Large pack or ARHA want beagles for.....what do you want your dogs to do? Why do you really want beagles...to hunt or to play games or both. Once you know that.... you can get out of other peoples box and move around.......the air is cleaner and the view is much better outside the box. Don't follow the pack. Do something different...make something Great Happen. Count the costs and Do your own thing....Do it for you...do it for beagles...do it for all of that. Do it for FUN!

I and many others I hunt with in the Deep South still have dogs that go back to lots of these old dogs Mr. John Posted Huntsman....Just like the Eveready Bunny....... it is still...... going and going and going!!!

The BEST and most COMPLETE hounds I ever had the pleasure to watch run a rabbit and or gun with were crosses of hounds you would never imagine existed. These guys bred good hound to good hounds...... they didn't follow fads or chase ribbons though their hounds could shine when brought to any kind of a trial where a rabbit was the target game.

If you notice....Lots of the good old gay blood mixed heavy behind lots of those great Gundog Dogs Mr. John bred \ owned and posted for us.!

Rabbit Hunters would never let something like this just vanish...no sir. They protect the Beagle Gundog Breed.

Just because people don't see it in Hounds and Hunting magazine or at an ACK field trial don't mean it doesn't exist.

People would be surprised maybe even SHOCKED at what is out there... OUT SIDE.....THE BOX.....In the REAL WORLD!

HUNTSMAN you've got some real good old blooded fine hounds at your place and I wish you lived closer so we could hunt together every weekend for a season. Then we would know what might cross well. I know you have some hounds I would love to cross on some of my junk.

Mitch
 
#21 · (Edited)
That's it!

That is the stuff Mr. John. Thanks for posting.

Those pedigrees are a beautiful site to behold.

The good old days of hunting dogs! I remember when hounds like that impressed breeders in all formats of hounds all around the country and most seemed to work together to make a better dog. We were not so divided and segregated as beagle fanciers.

Like you said sir those dogs were outstanding gundogs and extremely successful performers no matter where you brought them as the good ones always succeeded under the gun no matter the terrain.

It seemed like folks bred for more of a gundog at that time. I also noticed that breeders did not limit themselves to SPO, only for example but reached out for qualities they admired in other lines of hounds also. It wasn't all about just Field Trialing only it seemed. I may be wrong I don't know.

Many say beagles are much better toady as a whole I guess that is a matter of certain hounds and opinions and what you do with the dogs you breed.

All I do know from past experiences is that those dogs were hell on a rabbit in the field no matter the conditions.

Thanks again for posting Mr. John as you are so valuable to all of us on this site.

I still have some of that old stuff way in the back of some of my old hounds. I think it is what gives a few of them the little bit of grit some get.

Mitch
 
#23 ·
During the years of Indian Hills Majer being popular Dingus Macrae and Billy Grimshaw were also dogs with some Large Pack breeding which were super producers when bred to some of our CottonTail dogs as we called them back then. Most of my dogs at the time had that breeding in them. Some had all three, plus Blackcreek and Gay breeding. They were true rabbit dogs. Indian Hills Majer and Dingus Macrae were top producing Sires for several years in a row. I owned a male off of FC Adirondack Bobby, also a Large Pack type dog, but I was able to purchase him because he was just a medium speed dog, a 13" dog with a lot of grit. Actually he stuck a stick in one eye and lost site in it, but that didn't phase him.

SORRY FOR HAVING HIGH JACKED THIS POST!!!! BUT SEEING THE GOOD OLD DOGS MENTIONED PUT FIRE IN ME!!!!!! PUT LIFE BACK INTO ME!!!! SURELY BRINGS BACK GREAT MEMORIES!!

THANKS FOR STARTING THIS POST!!!!
 
#24 ·
I remember Larry Carter bred to FC Adirondack Bobby while they were trialing in New York one year. Apparently Larry saw him run and liked him. Fred Faust had a female named Ellie from that litter. She produced some good hounds when bred later to Majer.

We saw a little bit of FC Northbend Billy Grimshaw’s offspring in the early Midwest trials but most didn’t like it. Dan Mullens had a big male name Windy Ridge Billy (by Grimshaw) that placed some, but tended to be mouthy and would hang up on the line. Grimshaw was produced by breeding hare to brace, so sometimes the bad side came out.

Saw a lot of Dingus stuff. I always thought they were a lot like the Branko hounds that came later. A bit rougher with the line than I liked.

Now Majer, I loved that and probably have as much of it behind my hounds today as anyone. The late John New called Majer a “cull dog”, mostly I think because John chose to keep Majer’s sister, FC New City Pearl, instead of Majer. But I liked Majer’s clean fast running style and his great ability to stamp his puppies to be like him. He had several sons just as good as he was. Good stuff John and Reinmark.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Wow I bet they scorched a rabbit and did it right Mr John. That’s some awesome bloodlines
this post couldn't have turned out any better mr. Taylor
During the years of Indian Hills Majer being popular Dingus Macrae and Billy Grimshaw were also dogs with some Large Pack breeding which were super producers when bred to some of our CottonTail dogs as we called them back then. Most of my dogs at the time had that breeding in them. Some had all three, plus Blackcreek and Gay breeding. They were true rabbit dogs. Indian Hills Majer and Dingus Macrae were top producing Sires for several years in a row. I owned a male off of FC Adirondack Bobby, also a Large Pack type dog, but I was able to purchase him because he was just a medium speed dog, a 13" dog with a lot of grit. Actually he stuck a stick in one eye and lost site in it, but that didn't phase him.

SORRY FOR HAVING HIGH JACKED THIS POST!!!! BUT SEEING THE GOOD OLD DOGS MENTIONED PUT FIRE IN ME!!!!!! PUT LIFE BACK INTO ME!!!! SURELY BRINGS BACK GREAT MEMORIES!!

THANKS FOR STARTING THIS POST!!!!
 
#26 ·
Your pedigree is a little fuzzy, but it looks like I see Alfreds in there. He was Alfred Deel from near Columbus, OH. He had some good New City and Indian Hills hounds he got out of Kentucky.
I read a really long article on Alfred deal sometime ago but didnt put it together now that I have I'm happy to have his Hounds in her pedigree what I always thought was neat was the show Hound that was bred with the hunting Hound(maijer) to produce a lot of those great hounds, who would have figured it.
 
#27 ·
Prea
During the years of Indian Hills Majer being popular Dingus Macrae and Billy Grimshaw were also dogs with some Large Pack breeding which were super producers when bred to some of our CottonTail dogs as we called them back then. Most of my dogs at the time had that breeding in them. Some had all three, plus Blackcreek and Gay breeding. They were true rabbit dogs. Indian Hills Majer and Dingus Macrae were top producing Sires for several years in a row. I owned a male off of FC Adirondack Bobby, also a Large Pack type dog, but I was able to purchase him because he was just a medium speed dog, a 13" dog with a lot of grit. Actually he stuck a stick in one eye and lost site in it, but that didn't phase him.

SORRY FOR HAVING HIGH JACKED THIS POST!!!! BUT SEEING THE GOOD OLD DOGS MENTIONED PUT FIRE IN ME!!!!!! PUT LIFE BACK INTO ME!!!! SURELY BRINGS BACK GREAT MEMORIES!!

THANKS FOR STARTING THIS POST!!!!
Preach on Mr. Taylor it’s a nice history lesson for a lot of us that never got to see those dogs run. We always love to hear about the dogs from the past that really helped to influence the breed. We see them on our pedigree’s but may not know a lot about them, first hand accounts from the men who actually saw them run is great. Thanks
 
#32 · (Edited)
This pedigree shows FC Indian Hills Majer, FC Adirondack Bobby, FC Dingus Macrae and FC North Bend Billy Grimshaw, Plus, One of the First females to finish as an SPO Field Champion, FC Henrys Gypsy Rose (Owner: Purvis Bertrand, Church Point, La. ) Gypsy Rose was a medium speed female, smooth as silk, A 15" class female, which flowed so smooth on the line, although medium speed just flowed through other quicker dogs making them look like fools. She was also a great producer with a waiting list for her pups. Eventually I was able to buy two females from Purvis. One being J R's Bayou Bank Sugar, who was smooth also, just very easy, to easy to place in SPO. I and many others loved her as a gundog, as she always could carry the line when others struggled, Sugar showed them the way. I eventually gave her to my good friend, Now deceased, Jude Lemelle who would work my dogs a couple times a week for me. I had bred Sugar to my male, Jordan's Adirondack Charlie (son of Adirondack Bobby) which produced Bayou Teche Little Molly. Dudley Auzenne was just starting into Beagles at the time and liked what he saw in Little Molly. He drove to Mr. Sester's to breed her to FC Indian Hills Majer. I was given Campy's Jasper Maser and Campy's Lil Ann Majer out of that litter. Dudley kept the others out of that litter and started developing his kennel off of those dogs breeding them to the Blackcreek and Gay dogs. The reason for the Campy's name is, Dudley had named the whole litter. I had plenty fun gunning and placing Jasper and Lil Ann in the qualifying trials we use to have to place in to qualify for the Association and Federation runnoffs before AKC approved placing in their license trial as a qualifier.


........................CH Confer's Speck Of Dynamite
..................Playfair Cadet
........................Showfield Winkie
............Little Rowdy VI
.........................Famous Amos VII
..................Wells Vickey
........................Doolan's Princess
......FC Indian Hills Majer
........................Bell Mouth Tony
..................Lord Buckingham VI
........................Allmand's Fancy Girl
............New City Crystal
........................Oxcreek Rex
..................New City Tammy
........................Northwood's Blackie
Campy's Jasper Maser (HM26269801) Owner: John Taylor, Leonville, La.
Campy's Lil Ann Majer (HM26269803) Owner: John Taylor
........................FC Line Elm Bimbo
..................FC Adirondack Bobby
.......................FC Adirondack Judy
............Jordan's Adirondack Charlie
........................FC Doylands Little Sport
..................FC Adirondack Vickie
........................FC Adirondack Judy
......Bayou Teche Little Molly (breeder: John Taylor)
........................FC Dingus Macrae
..................Templet's Little Mac
........................FC Dingus Macrae
............J R's Bayou Bank Sugar
........................FC North Bend Billy Grimshaw
..................FC Henrys Gypsy Rose
........................Amys Lucky Penny


While I as looking at old pedigrees of good ones with Large pack breeding I came across the second pedigree below. A product of Blackcreek/Dingus, which produced one of the Best males I have owned. I judged him as a Derby and had to have him. He is the first dog I was offered $1,000 for, which was a big chunk of money back then for a Beagle. I refused it. My now deceased wife's answer was, heck I would give them the dog, kennel and a bag of dog food for that amount of money LOL!!!!! Oh, how I miss her.

........................South Fork Jojo
..................Blackcreek Sam VI
........................Blackcreek Polly II
............Mile Branch Sammy
........................Harvard's Moby Dick
..................Mile Branch Sadie
........................Hale's Sudie
......FC J R's T J
........................South Fork Jojo
..................Blackcreek Teddy
........................Blackcreek Polly II
............Sudon's Horny Chop
........................Mac's Shadrack
..................Mac's Shades MT Honey
........................Gentleline Bit-O-Honey
Campy's Toby (HM35959306) Owner: John Taylor, Leonville, La.
........................FC Dingus Macrae
.................Math New York Mac Rae
........................Smokey Sue Of Eunice
............Dupre's Newyork
........................FC Blizzard Road Buster
..................Buster's Clarabelle
........................Black Bayou Lady
......Campys Mabeline
........................FC Doylands Cash Cannon
.................FC Blizzard Road Buster
........................Scoobie-Do Korbitt
............Black Gal XXIII
.........................Rascal Lobo
..................Black Bayou Lady
........................Dupre's Pearl
 
#33 ·
Mr. John thanks for posting. Very nice!

Those are some of the stuff I used to run and hunt with many years ago.

TRanger you need to try a GOOD Skullfork\Blackcreek on them fine hounds you have bro.

One that hunts and can run. I would put one on all my bitches and see which ones I liked best then your in. If your wanting something you ain't seeing you have to do something no one is doing to get it.

Mr. John is showing you they used to do it down here all the time and picked what they liked and ran them in SPO others ran them in other formats where they did well too. Some did well in several formats.

That is where the hunt and the grit comes into some of the old lines from down here. It is no accident. It is bred in on purpose!
 
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