Gay Bred Female
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I have a question Tim, Why is it when someone ask about a Gay bred dog it's almost always said there are no Gay bred dogs anymore, either because Mr Reese has been dead for years or no one can breed like the original breeder did. Now I'm not arguing those points because they are both good points to make but if they were true of the Gay line then why are they not true of other lines like Stubby,Littleman,Dingus,Weir Creek,Black Creek,etc. ? I see people advertising Gay Baker bred dogs all the time and I agree that is wrong because Baker has been dead a long time now, but there were a lot of other breeders breeding the Gay line while Mr. Reese was alive that was friends with Mr. Reese ( and I've became close friends to a few of them myself ) and bought dogs off him and kept the line going. If I am to understand you correctly then those dogs even though they were off Mr. Reese's dogs are no longer Gay blood just because Mr. Reese died ? If what you are saying is true then I guess folks like my good friend Mr. Mike Ozust doesn't own true Yellow Creeks or Larry Perry doesn't have any true Dingus blood or Mr. Tim Kahl doesn't own any true Weir Creeks. Now granted there are a lot of people out there breeding anything with the Gay name in it and claiming it is a Gay bred dog or just breeding two dogs because the majority of the names in the pedigree say Gay but there are also several out there linebreeding Gay bred dogs their way, maybe not the way Frank did it but the way they see fit.I'm one of those people and have a few friends that do the same thing, we don't claim to have Gay Baker or Frank Reese Gay bred dogs but we do claim to have linebred Gay dogs. I have a male in my kennel right now that is a Grandson Of Gay Chase ( do the math and he is AKC Dna'd ) and will be 15 yrears and 1 month this weekend, now I ask you this, I have 4 litters out of him over the last several years but if I'm to understand you correctly he is little more than a watered down hound at best ? I'm NOT trying to start an arguement here just really curious how a person distinguishes what is true or what is not, in a line of dogs.
Tn and Houndsman I believe you both to be correct in your points made! JMO but for instance- just because my Uncle passed and I took his original line say of Skullfork and linebred, would I not be raising a true Skullfork dog??? This goes for any line of dogs. If I cross out then I agree that that line would be as you say Watered down! With that said If folks would keep really good records when they advertise a dog they could say 1/4 Indian Hills/1/4 Skullfork/1/2 Gay. This would be more true in most cases. Most of us have tried to keep old bloodlines going but at some point in time make an out cross to try and better our personal preferences and the breed. Good points made.
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The Gay line ended with Frank Reese. The Skullfork line ended with John Landrum. Dingus was just a dog, not a line. I forget the name of the Weir Creek breeder, but that very short line ended in the 1970s. Same with Blackcreek, and on and on. Bottom line is a line ends when the original breeder stops breeding and all stock that came from him/her die off. You can’t just keep making crosses and say that’s what he would have done. Anyone breeding any of these lines today should be calling them by your own kennel name, but you can say you have those lines in your pedigrees. Be your own breeders....no need to ride on the success of someone else. All lines can be improved.
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TN: Gay Chase was a nice hound. He was the product of one of Frank’s show outcrosses to Mandy Bobbit’s Bedlam line. I wish we had hounds like that today to use in our breeding programs. I hope you have retained some of his good qualities through the years.
The problem is Frank Reese had an idea of what he wanted. To keep his line pure to his ideal he would outcross occasionally to improve his Gay Line. If he needed better conformation, he bred out to Mandy Cronin's Show dogs. When he needed more stamina, he bred out to Hare bred dogs. When he wanted more line control he would breed to line control SPO dogs.
Then he culled out the dogs that didn't match his criteria. He knew his standard then bred and culled to keep it.
When a buyer bought a pup or unstarted dog, he had no idea if the dog would meet Reese's standard, but it was still a "Gay" dog. Maybe the dog pleased the new owner, even though he may not have pleased Frank. If he bred it and continued to select similar offspring in his breeding program, "Gay" hounds changed into something different. There was a tremendous difference between "Gay Baker" and "Gay Dash".
Years ago I bought a young Hare bred bitch from Cliff Rankin, I bred her to a double bred Gay Male, owned by a hunting buddy. I kept a bitch "Candy" that is back in the pedigree of all my dogs: She was "Gay" bred, but I never saw a dog at Reese's that I would rather have than her. She was awesome and gave me the pattern for future hounds. She probably wasn't Reese's "Ideal" and I didn't choose to use his Kennel name.
The most impressive thing to me about Reese, he was a tough guy in his 70s, who could walk through the woods climbing through brush, walking logs, at a pace few men his age could handle. He expected, no demanded, the same from his hounds. He would load his Pickup with hounds drive to the woods, turn loose and the race was on.
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Great post, Addi, from someone who lived in the days of the Gay hounds. I rank Mr Reese among the top beagle breeders ever, based on his accomplishments, and his extra long female line, something few others have had. He actively bred for conformation, also something few others, especially today, have done. He definitely was not afraid to try outcrosses of various types in an effort to advance his line. Top breeders are not afraid to try different crosses, and to cull and move on if it does not work.
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I understand what you are saying and agree but it helps a lot of people understand a little of the bloodlines behind a hound. If you say stubby, Otis, chicken, gay, boggy holler, J.D. homer black creek ect it gives me an idea of the type of hound it is but John Browns Rover dont ring a bell with the average back yard breeder and hunters, jmo.
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You may contact Adam Keith...has some good gun dogs with a lot of gay breeding behind them
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Unfortunately John Brown’s Rover is exactly what most pedigrees are showing today. People really don’t know what they have because pedigrees are so heterogeneous with no real sticking to any family, in most cases. And that makes calling it by some long gone kennel even more erroneous.
An all black and tan puppy is not a Bramlett hound just because of its color and because it has some hounds in its 5th generation that were bred by Don Bramlett.
A hound is not “Indian Hills” because one grandparent came from R.B. Sester....but that grandparent was.
Otis, Stubby, Buckshot, Reggie, etc, were hounds, not bloodlines. Shorts, Boggy Holler, Gay, Skullfork, Branko, etc were bloodlines (constructed from more than just a single hound). Some had enough of a definitive type to truly be called a strain within the breed. You can say your hounds go back to the Branko bloodline, or even crossed on Reggie, but you can’t truthfully call them Branko hounds if they didn’t come from Mr and Mrs Krpan (the Branko kennel).
Pedigrees full of Boggy Holler are misnamed “Weir Creek” hounds, even though Boggy Holler was more of a line of hounds than Weir Creek ever was, and certainly much more recent. Actually they GO BACK to Boggy Holler and FC Weir Creek Buzz, but should not be called either since they didn’t come from Terry Ward or Jack Stutz (I think that was his name).
There is so much misuse of kennel names today. I can only imagine some long deceased breeders are turning in their graves at what is being called “their” hounds these days.
Those are my thoughts. You can decide for yourself what you want to call your hounds. But if you breed them, they really are yours, as in “John Brown’s”.
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That is not necessarily true.
I took the bitch "Candy" to a "Gay" bred male, that was the result of Reese's experiment with the Bobbit "Show Breeding", Buck John II. If I remember correctly, she had six pups. There wasn't a pup in the litter that ran with any control.
The next breeding was to Appalachia Mountain Jay, . Every pup could run a rabbit and do it right. One of those pups is in my hounds pedigrees..
I'm not trying to criticize anyone, just relaying my experience. Also reminding new beaglers. to go watch them run before you breed or buy. It will save you time, maybe years, in establishing your kennel.
When you get my age, time is very important.
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Unfortunately John Brown’s Rover is exactly what most pedigrees are showing today. People really don’t know what they have because pedigrees are so heterogeneous with no real sticking to any family, in most cases. And that makes calling it by some long gone kennel even more erroneous.
An all black and tan puppy is not a Bramlett hound just because of its color and because it has some hounds in its 5th generation that were bred by Don Bramlett.
A hound is not “Indian Hills” because one grandparent came from R.B. Sester....but that grandparent was.
Otis, Stubby, Buckshot, Reggie, etc, were hounds, not bloodlines. Shorts, Boggy Holler, Gay, Skullfork, Branko, etc were bloodlines (constructed from more than just a single hound). Some had enough of a definitive type to truly be called a strain within the breed. You can say your hounds go back to the Branko bloodline, or even crossed on Reggie, but you can’t truthfully call them Branko hounds if they didn’t come from Mr and Mrs Krpan (the Branko kennel).
Pedigrees full of Boggy Holler are misnamed “Weir Creek” hounds, even though Boggy Holler was more of a line of hounds than Weir Creek ever was, and certainly much more recent. Actually they GO BACK to Boggy Holler and FC Weir Creek Buzz, but should not be called either since they didn’t come from Terry Ward or Jack Stutz (I think that was his name).
There is so much misuse of kennel names today. I can only imagine some long deceased breeders are turning in their graves at what is being called “their” hounds these days.
Those are my thoughts. You can decide for yourself what you want to call your hounds. But if you breed them, they really are yours, as in “John Brown’s”.
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Once again I agree with most everything you say. How would you describe the breeding behind your hounds without describing the breeding of its ancestors. I'm talking about mostly line bred hounds not bred 6 ways to Sunday. I know most people I know use the most popular bred dog in pedigree and say that's their dogs breeding. You hear Buckshot bred otis bred all the time . Breeders can buy pups from breeder and when they change the name it is still offspring from that breeder but will have new name on the bloodline. Most people use the more popular breeder names to sell pups. Somebody has always used another breeders line of hounds to try to accomplish what they want so how did we get from blue cap to here, Lol, I dont have a clue.
About forty-five years ago I decided I wanted to breed hounds. I selected a kennel name and selected a picture to represent my kennel, Never did make a patch or sign to identify my kennel. In those days it was difficult to find registered hunting beagles. Traditional Brace! Then Tom Dornin (Little Ireland) and Frank Reese (Gay) started advertising gundogs in Hounds and Hunting magazine.
I bought a bitch pup from Little Ireland. She turned out to be a very good running hound, medium speed. Then I bred a bitch to Gay Baker.
Then I moved to North Mississippi, and Bred a bitch to FC Jim's Roscoe.
Moved back to East Tennessee, and bred to Buck John II.
After that I bred to FC Bucks Branch Kalagha.
It seems as if all those dogs go back to Frank Reese's Gay Kennel. I didn't look for Gay Breeding, I was was just interested in dogs that ran the style that I liked.
Then I met a hunter that only kept males, who liked my hounds. I only keep females so we made good combination. If I started a male that i really liked, I took it to him. If he liked it better than one in his pack, he would buy mine and sell his. Now I don't have to travel to breed to a good stud, I drive up the road and pick one of several.
Even though there are a lot of Gay genes in my hounds, they aren't Gay they are "Break O Day".
I bought a bitch pup from Little Ireland. She turned out to be a very good running hound, medium speed. Then I bred a bitch to Gay Baker.
Then I moved to North Mississippi, and Bred a bitch to FC Jim's Roscoe.
Moved back to East Tennessee, and bred to Buck John II.
After that I bred to FC Bucks Branch Kalagha.
It seems as if all those dogs go back to Frank Reese's Gay Kennel. I didn't look for Gay Breeding, I was was just interested in dogs that ran the style that I liked.
Then I met a hunter that only kept males, who liked my hounds. I only keep females so we made good combination. If I started a male that i really liked, I took it to him. If he liked it better than one in his pack, he would buy mine and sell his. Now I don't have to travel to breed to a good stud, I drive up the road and pick one of several.
Even though there are a lot of Gay genes in my hounds, they aren't Gay they are "Break O Day".
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Addi, you and I started about the same time with some of the same lines. I have an old list of names and addresses that Tom Dornin compiled and we are both listed there. One of the first hounds I bred to was a grandpup of FC Weir Creek Buzz, but nobody called him a Weir Creek hound. He was bred by Tom Dornin, so we called him a Little Ireland hound.
Yeah I met you a couple of times when we were young men. David Brandenburg and I would drive up to Nicholasville and run with John New and others. Good memories.
I kept in touch with Tom Dornin for several years. I wrote him a letter describing a run by the Little Ireland bitch, (Binkey and Bebe) on a swamp rabbit in Mississippi, He published it in the then "Large Pack" magazine.
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