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Anyone Working Hard on Improving the Focused, Briar Grubbing HUNT and Jump Power in your hounds?

If your are attempting to IMPROVE the overall Toughness, Gameness and HUNT in you line of hounds...while maintaining all the good qualities you have how are you doing it?

How is it going?

What is working for you?

What is not working for you?

Lastly.....

How do you test to measure, prove your success \ failure in the breeding pen when attempting to improve REAL HUNT while maintaining all the good qualities?

or

Are you completely satisfied in the HUNT department as your hounds are the complete and total package and need no improving?
My hounds satisfy me and that's all that matters.
 

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Mine are in the brush when let out of their dog box, hunting all the while, I run my pups with the all age dogs so they get more hunt into them as well, they are modeling the older dogs, and using them as a good training method. But I must be careful so bad habits are not started. JMO
 

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What I look for is jumping ability rather than hunt. I’ve hunted a lot with dogs that run around & thru every thicket yet never seem to start any rabbits. I’ve also owned a few that by just watching you’d think they never find one. But every time you go they jump just as many or more than any other dog on the ground. Went on or keep anything that just stands at your feet. Knowing the line you have & how they develop is critical too. We all like see flashy hunt but some never produce a rabbit. Recognize that some have a bit different way of going about jumping to. I’ve had some that take a older track & move it steady as a clock to a jump in no time at all. I guess some would say they are trailing but I’ve learned they can be very special in some big thick clear cut areas almost can’t crawl through. They trail right to where rabbit sitting & sound like explosion. I’m not talking about dog gomms around back & forth over same ground. It hard to describe but you’d see it you know it. I’ve only owned a couple with this trait. Here we don’t have enclosures we got big timber cuts or Large tracts of strip mine land that gets a lot pressure you have to have a jump dog to be successful
The bitch line I’ve kept & try pretty much stay in I guess. You see several xes these same dogs & bred just like it similar to them. Jack was one the dogs like i described earlier View attachment 55088
Well said!
 

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Anyone Working Hard on Improving the Focused, Briar Grubbing HUNT and Jump Power in your hounds?

If your are attempting to IMPROVE the overall Toughness, Gameness and HUNT in you line of hounds...while maintaining all the good qualities you have how are you doing it?

How is it going?

What is working for you?

What is not working for you?

Lastly.....

How do you test to measure, prove your success \ failure in the breeding pen when attempting to improve REAL HUNT while maintaining all the good qualities?

or

Are you completely satisfied in the HUNT department as your hounds are the complete and total package and need no improving?

I'm never completely satisfied with anything Mitch. Except my wife of course. Before I started Field trialing 11 years ago I had what I call rabbitdogs. The rules were: Find a rabbit and pursure it till I kill it. Lost rabbits and off game races were not acceptable. These dogs didn't win in Field trials so I had to make a change if I was going to be succesfull. The first 2-3 years that I trialed I just wanted to win a trial or finish a dog. Jumpdogs were seldom seen at trials even though the dogs hunted good for the most part. Mine included. I bought a pair of male pups from Mike Reynolds out of FC Five Star Smokey x FC Tate's Leann. I had hunted with Leann, she was a huntin fool with that jumpdog style. One of these males was to become FC Dry Creek Iron mike. He was extremely intelligent and had Leann's style of hunt and also won the derby Nationals in 2015. I had also purchased a young lemon female that had extreme hunt and stamina from an older gentleman that said she was a little too much dog for him. She also had that birddog, jumpdog style like Leann. I bred her to FC Dry Creek Iron Mike. The cross produce hunting, running machines. FC Dry Creek Rowdy and FC McDaniel's little Black Smoke finished out of this litter, another would have finished but did not get a chance. Mike Reynolds bred FC Star R Easy Raylyne to Rowdy, she was out of FC Tate's Leann. That cross had a double shot of Leann and also my good female Nugget. The results produced at least 2 little derby males that are brush busting jumpdogs. My point here is that I think the individual is so, so important in a breeding program. I also think the female is just as much if not more important than the male. My Field trial dog standards have evolved to this point. Maybe I was just lucky, I don't know. What I do know is that I hunt and train on public land. If you don't have a jumpdog that can also run a rabbit you are in trouble. They say necessity is the mother of all inventions. I guess that's true. Good post Mitch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Thanks for posting Mack. Great stuff. Outstanding information! How big is Mike?

Can you post some pedigrees of these hounds for others to see, learn and get information and ideas from. You may get some breeding's too if you want any.

This is the kind of information that can help everyone that wants or needs more hunt in the good dogs they already have. Me for one.

Again thanks everyone.

Keep going please.... who else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Branch I seen lots and lots of them dogs run from pups all the way up in Jack's pedigree as they were born all around me. I hunt and run dogs with the breeders and owners. I know all them old dogs and many of them all the way back.

That is some good old school dogs right there in both pedigrees..NICE!

I spent a lot of hours running behind many of them hounds in the wild.
 

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I would say I’m pretty satisfied with my dogs although they could hunt harder and jump rabbits faster, they do hunt and do jump rabbits.... they have big noses and good line control, maybe a step slow when conditions aren’t good, but pick it up some when scenting allows, one thing I’m always trying to improve is hunt and jumping ability and maybe grit I do see where my dogs are done hunting by 1:30 or 2 when I’m still wanting one more race... dogs I’m running are digger/Otis crossed with shorts bred dogs... don’t get me wrong they all hunt and this year for the first year I didn’t have a “jump dog” and all of my dogs took turns jumping rabbits...my old jump dog would jump 8 out of 10. A jump dog is worth it’s weight in gold, I started messing with blackcreeks some to add hunt and grit in my pack but I’m not sure that they will have the nose and line control that I’m used too and they seem to have a lil more foot, time will tell
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 · (Edited)
Blue Tail...….Here is a TIP from me to you....Watch out!..... lots....many of todays common everyday run of the mill Blackcreeks are plagued with lack of nose to average nose and many wobble on the line. A whole bunch of them.....not all mind you but a whole bunch also check back and side to side first before they check forward and as you know 70 percent of the time the check is straight ahead. The good ones do not do this but the average decent running black dog out there scattered out all over the country does.

That is why the original breeders culled those and sold them off and kept others. Also many run and perform great at slow to dead flat medium speed. If you pick them up a notch they start hooking and or skirting and cutting up....slow them back down a little and rule book dog. There you go some truth for you my friend.

I get some that are a little sort on nose to me from time to time. They can run a good rabbit and other people love them but they are a little short for me. I also get some with just the average good nose and I cull all those out too...but they run nice and they do hunt and they are tuff as a pine knot.

There are some real, real good Black dogs out there that are NOT short on nose and can smell it and do not wobble and check forward but they are not under every bush. people hold them tight with their mouth shut. So I said all that to say this...…..Check em before you breed to them.

I like to check my derby's at 12:00 noon to 2:00 pm in July and August when the sweat is pouring. I have on short pants, no shirt and a big hat with water in my hand. I start putting dogs down one at a time. I put them down and i go sit where I can see in the shade and watch to see who will go in under the briars in the 110 degree heat, jump me a rabbit and can keep it going and keep showing it to me at any speed. When they got on a rabbit I see who can hold on to it and who eventually looses is. Very...Very informative.

You will be shocked at how many good running hounds can't, wont go jump you a rabbit in that kind of heat and the few that will that can't hold on to it for long in any breed!

You will find out who really wants a rabbit to run and who can really smell and buckle down an keep it going and going when most hounds wont' or cannot!

The rare few that can do both every time out like this day after day....they get bred. It don't even pay to breed the others IMO even though they are FC's.

I sure don't want pups off them.

Good informative posts keep sharing information please!
 

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Blue Tail...….Here is a TIP from me to you....Watch out!..... lots....many of todays common everyday run of the mill Blackcreeks are plagued with lack of nose to average nose and many wobble on the line. A whole bunch of them.....not all mind you but a whole bunch also check back and side to side first before they check forward and as you know 70 percent of the time the check is straight ahead. The good ones do not do this but the average decent running black dog out there scattered out all over the country does.

That is why the original breeders culled those and sold them off and kept others. Also many run and perform great at slow to dead flat medium speed. If you pick them up a notch they start hooking and or skirting and cutting up....slow them back down a little and rule book dog. There you go some truth for you my friend.

I get some that are a little sort on nose to me from time to time. They can run a good rabbit and other people love them but they are a little short for me. I also get some with just the average good nose and I cull all those out too...but they run nice and they do hunt and they are tuff as a pine knot.

There are some real, real good Black dogs out there that are NOT short on nose and can smell it and do not wobble and check forward but they are not under every bush. people hold them tight with their mouth shut. So I said all that to say this...…..Check em before you breed to them.

I like to check my derby's at 12:00 noon to 2:00 pm in July and August when the sweat is pouring. I have on short pants, no shirt and a big hat with water in my hand. I start putting dogs down one at a time. I put them down and i go sit where I can see in the shade and watch to see who will go in under the briars in the 110 degree heat, jump me a rabbit and can keep it going and keep showing it to me at any speed. When they got on a rabbit I see who can hold on to it and who eventually looses is. Very...Very informative.

You will be shocked at how many good running hounds can't, wont go jump you a rabbit in that kind of heat and the few that will that can't hold on to it for long in any breed!

You will find out who really wants a rabbit to run and who can really smell and buckle down an keep it going and going when most hounds wont' or cannot!

The rare few that can do both every time out like this day after day....they get bred. It don't even pay to breed the others IMO even though they are FC's.

I sure don't want pups off them.

Good informative posts keep sharing information please!
Ahhh The backwards checking ! I've seen it make dogs look brilliant a few times. I've witnessed cottontails backtrack and jump to the side of the line and squat plenty of times . Checking backwards immediately is a fault imo & it usually makes me mad watching it ! The majority of strains I've fooled with do it though.
 

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Branch I seen lots and lots of them dogs run from pups all the way up in Jack's pedigree as they were born all around me. I hunt and run dogs with the breeders and owners. I know all them old dogs and many of them all the way back.

That is some good old school dogs right there in both pedigrees..NICE!

I spent a lot of hours running behind many of them hounds in the wild.
Yes Mitch they did come from down your way. They originally were purchased as pups from Wayne Martin by Everett Morgan the founder & original publisher of the rabbit hunter magazine. It’s not been the same since he sold it. Many articles were written about the lines by the rev. John parks. I enjoyed his writing very much. At the time I had registered grade dogs with the arha &had some good ones but being only one breeding them. I had run off bad luck & lost about 4 dogs in short period of time. I had make a change & I wasn’t happy with anything I’d saw up this way as most had become way too rough, no nose, over competitive to a fault, no real stick at a check ie lack of patience that I saw. JMO I knew Everett through the hunts & talked with him. He saw the need for different formats to fit owners likes. That’s how different divisions began. Just like different federations in Akc. I noticed he tried a few different lines & this one he stuck with. I purchased 2 bitch pups from him & they turned out to be exactly what I wanted. A year later I got the Jack dog as a pup from him. We formed a great friendship through the years. He been a great help & deserves a lot for his contributions to the breed through the rabbit hunter magazine. It’s not much today I don’t think I stopped getting it long ago. Everett still going strong at 78 years young . We coop good bit in dogs along with a few others. Stayed 20 years plus now in same line. I’d like say thanks to all down your way for producing a great line of hunting dogs. Most like you said are in rabbit hunters kennels
 

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Thanks for posting Mack. Great stuff. Outstanding information! How big is Mike?

Can you post some pedigrees of these hounds for others to see, learn and get information and ideas from. You may get some breeding's too if you want any.

This is the kind of information that can help everyone that wants or needs more hunt in the good dogs they already have. Me for one.

Again thanks everyone.

Keep going please.... who else.
FC Dry Creek Iron Mike is 13". All the dogs I trial are 13" males. I'm attaching a pedigree of my derby male. Spring Creek Oz. I believe much of his hunting and jumping ability comes from FC Tate's Leann and Dry Creek Gold Nugget. His sire FC Dry Creek Rowdy is also a top hunting dog.
 

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Branch Hollow I like the pedigrees on your dogs I got some similar breeding in my kennel had an older male from Mr Morgans stock he died a couple years ago but got some dogs out of him and a gyp that was a little slower but little better line control that I’m pleased with lol everyone probably wouldn’t agree that it was a good cross but I aint scared to gamble and it worked for me I’ll post males pedigree.
1E6E88DF-3334-4ECE-8D02-BAF154E34114.jpeg
 

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Branch Hollow I like the pedigrees on your dogs I got some similar breeding in my kennel had an older male from Mr Morgans stock he died a couple years ago but got some dogs out of him and a gyp that was a little slower but little better line control that I’m pleased with lol everyone probably wouldn’t agree that it was a good cross but I aint scared to gamble and it worked for me I’ll post males pedigree. View attachment 55101
I had a sister to your male. Like you said touch rougher i liked too. Bottom of pedigree reason why I think. Melinda I saw run nice clean dog but bottom side got some rougher ones I think? I bred her to the Jack dog & she produced excellent litter. Guy in Alabama rabbit hunter bought her. I have s female out a male from that litter now. I don’t use the homer dogs anymore either. They didn’t seem x that well on what I had & I hated the looks of them. Although I have saw some good looking homer dogs. I also ran with another bitch bred just like Melinda . Out of homer x papa Smurf’s Kay Kay. She sister Melinda mom. Really nice bitch. Owned by another good friend Jim Dagley from Michigan.
 

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I agree just a touch rough but my male was a jump dog deluxe, sounded like a bush hog coming through the briars and he could pile the tailgate full of rabbits . He was a retriever and passed it to several pups I like that part .
Where are you located ? We might have to get together and run one of these days
 

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Always a good topic Mitch , and plenty of excellent responses. Me personally , have been running and breeding the same blood lines for 35 -40 yrs. I get all serviceable search , and many outstanding ones . A couple out crosses have produced a lazier one here and there. I have found that the training / running program each hound receives , has tremendous impact on total package.
They need to come from a line of quality individuals for probable success . Not the norm , but Have seen plenty start out with excellent hunt / search , only to loose that desire . Typically by infrequent running and training . Especially in the important development stage. Also in areas with very little game ,( no reward for their endless search ) and the worst senecio ,days and days , hours and hours of unsupervised training , at a trail laden running pen. The hounds are smart , and will eventually adapt to the situation , taking the easiest path to starting a rabbit. Handle your hounds. Stay with them. Insist they stay in the cover and search. Avoid training with your buddies lazy path running hounds. Best case option is , select areas with the densest nastiest cover to train hounds. Especially the younger hounds. Start in the briars early on. I have often times taken a litter of 8 week old pups , tossed a handful of kibble into a briar patch behind my kennel. Watch the group work through that nastiness , in search a little reward. Few sessions of that ,and they dive right in. Pretty easy to identify the ones with superior desire. Just some things I’ve observed over the years.
 

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Oh yeah. They hunt & jump. They other pedigree is Sherlocks too. I owned a sister to him. Best bitch I ever owned up until that time. She’s a jump dog deiuxe & Cleaner than Sherlock. Iron Lady Everett owned too. She really clean too & decent jump too. All of them are in pedigrees of what I have today. I’ve made no real out xes. Have bred to some that are similar breed though different dogs not much though. Southeast Ohio
 
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